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Reged: Feb 16 2004
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My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3077 - Sun Feb 12 2006 10:57 PM

This thread is for comments and feedback about My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney.

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Hal Duncan
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3085 - Mon Feb 13 2006 05:47 AM

Well said. My favourite of Matt's SH columns so far.

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Christopher Barzak
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3087 - Mon Feb 13 2006 06:35 AM

It was quite good, wasn't it? Matt's become one of the better writers writing about thinking about genre and writing and genre writing as well as literary writing that we have.

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Anonymous
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3092 - Mon Feb 13 2006 01:25 PM

Beware of the writer who writes about writing. Beware of the writer who writes.

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Ben Payne
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3096 - Mon Feb 13 2006 03:24 PM

Interesting column, Matt. While I agree that accessible writing is in no way universal, I wonder, to play devil's advocate, if the same arguments you make about complicated writing could be applied to poor writing. ie, a writer who writes badly is attempting to communicate something, but due to their craftsmanship (or lack of) the readers might not "get" it. Could you argue that the reader should challenge themself not to expect, say, rounded characters, or original ideas, but to try to grasp the things that such communication barriers are masking?


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TansyRR
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3097 - Mon Feb 13 2006 03:47 PM

I can't help feeling that this article, interesting and insightful though it is, falls into the trap that something "difficult" to read is worthy literature, which I don't agree with at all.

I found the discussion of the term "self-indulgent" as a descriptive of certain kinds of writing most interesting - particularly the idea that when a reader/critic calls something "self-indulgent," it's more about them than the writer.

As a writer, I reserve the right to be utterly self-indulgent whenever I want. :)

But as a reader and reviewer... I don't find "inaccessible" writing to be the most self-indulgent thing a writer can do. For a start, I never assume that a writer is deliberately writing in an "inaccessible" manner - that to me would be the height of self-indulgence. But given that I am fairly well educated and trained in reading texts of all types, I assume that if *I* find something inaccessible it is either badly written, or I'm having a bad day. This is probably very self-indulgent of me...

Personally, I believe the most self-indulgent thing that a writer can do is to take the easy choices. To aim for the "feelgood" rather than "make it harder". To present the most obvious outcomes, and the simple path to victory.

I dread the last Harry Potter book, because I crave the complicated and the surprising, and I no longer trust JK Rowling to give that to me (as I did two books ago). But I keep hoping.

Fan fic is for wish fulfillment - it's the ultimate in self-indulgence and more power to it. But literature... by which I mean something good to read... should make the interesting choices.


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Anonymous
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3102 - Mon Feb 13 2006 10:18 PM

First to Ben -- I entirely avoided the issue of bad writing, because then I would have ended up with a 10,000-word column full of waffling. Part of the reason I structured it as I did was to cut out transitions where I kept saying things like "on the other hand". There needed to be more of a sense of tentativeness to it all, even when I was making uncautiously (even pretentiously) grand statements.

In his new book About Writing, Delany makes an interesting distinction between "good writing" and "talented writing", saying that "good writing" is writing that is clear and yet pretty much the same as most other writing, whereas he lays out a number of qualities of "talented writing", for instance "rhetorically interesting, musical, or lyrical phrases that are briefer than the pedestrian way of saying 'the same thing'." Etc.

Whether we agree with Delany's specifics or not, it's useful to have them, because he's someone who happily reads all sorts of different things, including vastly more innovative fiction than I'm personally interested in, and he lays out the specific criteria for how he evaluates what he reads. He also questions his own criteria, and that's important. He seems pretty aware of the assumptions he works from. Rather than coming up with some essentialist definition of "bad writing" vs. some other type, I'd rather encourage people to consider what they consider to be "bad" and why, and to see how deeply they hold onto those ideas. But I'm an inveterate postmodernist, so I am allergic to any definition of anything, including "bad", that isn't supported with lots of rationales. This column is me trying to work through, and even challenge, my own rationales for liking some stuff that other people don't.

As for the charge of overvaluing "difficulty", that may be to some extent true, but I hope a careful reading of the whole column reveals at least a bit more nuance than that. "Easy" and "difficult" are such relative terms that I'm not sure how to even address them. I will say, though, that the reading experiences I ultimately value the most are the ones that cause me to think, and that make me feel like I need to reread what I read so that I can think even more. There's so much to read out there, and so little time, that the older I get the less time I want to spend with any sort of reading that doesn't engage every bit of my mind as fully as possible.


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Ted Chiang
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Reged: Feb 14 2006
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3105 - Tue Feb 14 2006 02:46 AM

In section 8, Matt says "A person using such terms [masturbatory, self-indulgent] claims to understand what is going on in the mind of the writer." I'd like to quote something Matt once said in a Mumpsimus post:

"I recently described a book I found unreadable by saying that somebody must have told the author he wrote beautiful sentences, and so he decided to run out and fill 450 pages with them."

Is this so different from calling a writer self-indulgent?

Matt, even if you have personally decided to never describe a book in such terms again, I don't believe that everyone who uses terms like "self-indulgent" is guilty of all the sins you ascribe to them. (And allow me to point out that you are claiming to understand what goes on in the mind of those who use such terms.)

All writers can benefit from readers given them the benefit of the doubt from time to time. But, just as writers are familiar with certain conventions of communication, readers are too. Sometimes, a reader will get the impression that a writer, in pursuit of what was enjoyable to write, lost track of what was enjoyable to read. Can the reader know this for a certainty? No; there are always an infinite number of theories consistent with a given set of observations. But let me suggest that it is not unheard of for a writer to amuse him/herself at the expense of the reader's enjoyment, and that a reader can offer that as a hypothesis without making a "[damning] judgment on both the writer and the audience."


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Anonymous
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3106 - Tue Feb 14 2006 03:43 AM

Fair enough, Matt. I certainly didn't find the article dogmatic, and yeah, as a thought-provoking piece it works.



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Ben Payne
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Re: My Window Is Your Mirror, My Mirror Is Your Wall, My Wall Is Your Window, by Matthew Cheney
      #3107 - Tue Feb 14 2006 03:44 AM

That was me, accidentally anonymous.

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