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Reged: Feb 16 2004
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The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2337 - Mon Sep 05 2005 02:21 AM

This thread is for comments about The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith.

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Hel
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Reged: Dec 09 2004
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2342 - Mon Sep 05 2005 05:14 PM

Interesting read, particularly enjoyed the section about the internet.

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David Moles
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Reged: Jan 07 2004
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2348 - Tue Sep 06 2005 12:49 PM

Now I'm not going to rest easy until I write a story set in O'Neill's future. Brilliant! I had no idea his politics were so wacky. And that essentially a small-town boy trapped in a big world populated by people and ideas he doesn't understand is the best description of the worst of the libertarian SF mindset that I've ever heard.



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-- David


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Kartik Agaram
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What utopias are missing here?
      #2353 - Thu Sep 08 2005 12:41 AM

What about the christian notion of heaven, the muslim notion of paradise?

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David Moles
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Reged: Jan 07 2004
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Re: What utopias are missing here?
      #2355 - Thu Sep 08 2005 01:11 PM

Which Christian notion of heaven, and which Muslim notion of paradise? There are so many.

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-- David


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Sam Tomaino
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2357 - Thu Sep 08 2005 02:38 PM

In an otherwise very erudite article, you state :"The New World was to be More's Utopia, at last made real. In Salem sixty years later, witches would burn."

All but one of the "witches" of Salem were hung. He who was not hung was crushed by stones. No one was burned.


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2358 - Thu Sep 08 2005 03:29 PM

Great essay!
It ought to be read by every jerk who ever said something like "If only people would follow the ideals of INSERT GURU HERE, we could create a perfect state..."
:)


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2359 - Fri Sep 09 2005 09:03 AM

What about, Let's make the world safe for democracy? Utopian ideals from the Wilson to the present Bush administration.

If Jeremy Adam Smith didn't include one of the many Christian or Islamic heavens, perhaps he still clings to his belief in one of them and can't admit that such faith is stupid. Or he was afraid to be a target of the "true-believers" and chose to avoid the subject. It's so much easier to pick on minorities, like Plato's Republic, isn't it? I mean, who's going to defend that?

Hans Weber


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Jeremy Smith
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2360 - Fri Sep 09 2005 09:29 AM

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. (I started writing this at 5:30 am; as the father of an infant son, this is practically the only time I get for writing. He and my lovely wife are sleeping in the next room, so, shhhhhh.) My reponses to your responses:

1) To Mr. Moles: Actually, I feel a bit guilty about picking on O'Neill. (No qualms, however, about picking on L. Neil Smith.) The High Frontier is genuinely inspiring and he's not a committed corporate fascist, just a naive technocrat. What I find so problematic about his vision is the locust-like mentality that drives it, the yearning to "solve" the problems our appetites create by simply leaving them behind. I also think that there's something stupid about any utopia that refuses to engage with the potential dark side of its vision -- there's a great deal I didn't go into in my short piece, but one can imagine many social and political problems emerging from the High Frontier. I realize that O'Neill was a brilliant physicist, not an artist like, for example, U.K. Le Guin. He had limitations, just as I have mine and you have yours, but it's my responsibility as a critic to point them out.

2) Regarding the monotheistic heaven: Well, I did start my ten sexiest dystopias piece with the Christian Hell and I thought it might provide balance to start the utopias piece with Heaven. But, the more I thought about it the more I realized that I don't actually think that there's anything stupid about the Christian idea of the afterlife. Of course, as one of those urban, secular Humanists so despised by the Christian Right, I don't literally believe in one word of it. But...there's a very simple, understandable yearning behind this concept of reward and punishment, for moral redress and rectification but also for everlasting peace. I try to respect its power as myth and moral scheme. Also, my top ten is really just a frame for developing a line of argument about the relationship between power and idealism; I didn't feel like Heaven fit.

3) Regarding burning vs. hanging: D'oh! You got me. "Witches would burn" had such a nice ring to it, horribly. I also received a very kind email from this eccentric character named David Woodard, who corrected some small facts about Nueva Germania. I actually found out about Nueva Germania from hearing about Woodard, a composer who is trying to build an opera house there. Woodard doesn’t appear to be a neo-Nazi; he just has what I consider to be an unhealthy Wagner-inspired fixation of all things Teutonic. Anyway, I will write to the editors at SH and see if we can integrate these corrections at a later date.


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ten Stupidest Utopias!, by Jeremy Adam Smith
      #2365 - Sun Sep 11 2005 09:48 AM

Those fantasies about a heavenly reward lead many Christians and Muslims to treat this life as disposable, and give leverage to such highly moral creatures as Pat Robertson and Osama bin Laden. They're clearly "utopias" in the etymological sense, and -- in my opinion -- they are incredibly stupid.


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