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Indest <rfefe@gmail.com> Links to this old forum page will be changed, over time, to point to the new forum; if you followed a link from our site to get to this page, don't worry about it. If you followed a link from another site to get here, you may want to suggest to the referring site that they change the link.
Jed <fiction@strangehorizons.com> Just read 'In the Late December'. What a great story. Sad and touching and original. My favourite Strange Horizons piece for a long time.
Marvin Monroe <mmonroe@dmmftc.org> "For Now It's Eight O'Clock" was a really fine thing to be reading at precisely 8pm as my daughter was in the bathroom... Wonderful story.
Dawn P Nice article on Dr. Seuss! (Though the scansion of the verse sections needs work). Perhaps the golden age of science fiction is four!
Benjamin Rosenbaum The Wizard of Earthsea book was very interesting but wouldn't recommend for people who hate fantasies
Jo <07woodj@kws.nsw.edu.au> I read A Wizard of Earthsea. It was very imaginative but I would not recommend it
steff <07attleys@hotmail.com> The story by Alex Irvine was wonderful. I was also impressed with Greg Beatty's tribute to the good doctor.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> I go for a few months without checking the forum because ... it was a 'letters to the editor column' and who reads those? Then y'all go and have a discussion about building a moonbase without me. Bah. I know a guy who is raising money to build a space elevator. You'll need a cheap way to throw deliver tonnage to LEO to support your infrastructure ....
Brian <brian.dunbar@liftport.com> Consensus has been reached. I will be working on the pilot episode for our moonbase reality show. Ben
Benjamin Rosenbaum <ben@digitaladdiction.com> I have to say that this moon-base undersea-city conversation is the best thing to ever happen to this comments page, and I only regret that it happened before we rolled out our shiny new discussion/comments system. (which would have been the more collaborative format Ben was looking for. soon!)
Susan Marie Groppi <susan@sugarspun.net> Ben! < this is me running in slow motion toward you through a field of buttercups and sunshine, crying, "Brunhilda! Brunhilda!" > Ah HA ha ha ha! I think ultimately we're on the same page, not a small achievement for a top-notch fantasy writer and someone who tends more toward hard SF (although I've also sold some weirdo horror; too much Stephen King as a boy.) A few points-- The expense to boost tonnage to the moon is actually LOWER than the cost to move the same amount of material into a stable geosync orbit. (Park it in low Earth orbit, though, like the ISS, and you do come out ahead of a moon-landing by more than twice; not a hundred times, but more than twice.) Just pack your bulldozers and espresso machines into a good old-fashioned Russian raw-muscle Energia rocket. Cheap! Launch five or six of 'em and you won't have to resupply your moonbase for years -- no exaggeration. And skip those pretty little glass bubbles on the surface, let's get the hab module under the soil for protection. Gravity wells. The moon has only one-sixth of what you're feeling right now (well, maybe not Ben; his mind is lofty indeed, ho ho). So kicking off again is not much of an issue or cost. And obviously the moon has plenty of surface space across which to expand, a lab here, an überHubble there, which could be a major benefit over orbital stations if you're manufacturing on-site, instead of assembling your space toys down on Earth and then shoving everything upwards. Anyway, I'll cop to some rhetoric myself. First of all, the moon won't be particularly rich mining (unless our best guesses are wrong; we've barely explored it yet at all). You'd want to comb the asteroid belt for iron and nickel if you've got large-scale construction plans like a bazillion solar power sats and interstellar probes and so forth. Obviously you're not going to be doing that with eight guys hunkered down in a subsurface box. But you're not going to do it WITHOUT getting those guys there, either, as the first step. As for science (or anything that pays off your investment, really), those guys aren't going to be doing any for months or years -- too busy getting established -- at least no science beyond pre-packaged experiment kits like those on the ISS and shuttle missions, albeit different and unique kits. As for the current administration's proposal, I said from the get-go that in my sad opinion it's probably only election-year blather. Too bad. I'm all for sustainable economics and privateers like the Artemis Project. My concern is that it will be all too easy for our civilization to remain embroiled in geo-political-socio-environmental problems (try saying that after a few drinks!) and miss the chance to transcend our busy little selves. Now, let's NOT start talking about historical/cultural imperatives and inertia -- I'd rather invest that energy including it as background in a novel. The whole point re: to-moonbase-or-not-to-moonbase is the long view and taking that first step. Someday, I hope, the moon will be a star port. Not in our lifetimes. If we're super lucky you and I might get in a few craters of space golf when we're sixty. And in our new collaborative spirit, I want your okay to take a new reality pitch to Hollywood, baby! "Gay Millionaire Midget Bachelors' Survivor: Luna." Your cut should be seven figures, easy. JC
Jeff Carlson <JffCarlson@aol.com> Not to interrupt the moon-base conversation, but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed Kameron Hurley's story. It's fun to see a science fiction story that looks at the social science of gender dynamics and identity, and I really enjoyed it.
Patrick Weekes All right -- I plead guilty to exaggerations and rhetorical flourishes. Just because it's so damn fun, though. But perhaps we can move this conversation to a more collaborative mode (are we boring everyone else stiff, by the way? Do you all want to chime in? Or tell us to shut up?) I grant you've given a lot of examples of stuff we could do on the moon. Educate me about why it's cheaper to do them in the moon rather than in orbit. Maybe I'm wrong. My sense was that going in and out of gravity wells is costly, and that being able to get people down quick makes safety and health issues much more manageable. But I'm not a rocket scientist. While you are proposing to add to NASA's budget without slashing the much more efficient (in science-per-dollar terms) stuff it does, it's not my sense that that's what Bush is proposing. Haven't a lot of people in the NASA/space science community also been groaning "oh god, there goes the budget for real science?" Of course, you're right -- building automated satellites will principally help us to get better at building automated satellites. But the reason I suspect that we should invest in that, rather than on schlepping human beings to other satellites, is that my sense is that in near-orbit stuff, there is a great likelihood of the commercial sector quickly taking over. That changes it from a drain on national treasure to an engine of growth. Communications satellites are already a booming sector and, if I understand correctly, a profit center for national space agencies. It seems to me that with a little governmental investment of the ARPAnet kind, zero-grav manufacturing and other such technologies could be quickly gotten to this point as well. Once you have the engine of private enterprise behind the technology, explosive growth is possible. At that point, getting to the moon becomes much easier. Sure, computers and the internet started out as government projects. So did a lot of things that didn't enter the virtuous cycle of private enterprise. Can you imagine what the Internet would look like if it were still run top-down, command-style by the government? The PC you're sitting at would cost 20 million dollars. I never meant to imply that there was no science to do on the moon -- that moonbase staff would be twiddling their thumbs. My comment about the reality TV show was meant in the light of this philosophical approach to government policy. It seems to me there are two kinds of things the government should fund. One is basic research, which it should do as cost-effectively as possible for the scientific benefit. If, in fact, the moon is the cheapest place to do the most science, maybe you could justify it. My sense is if you take *the same dollars* and put them elsewhere, you'll get better science done (and I've mentioned some places you could put them). It's bad economics to say "ok, fund that stuff TOO, never mind that". I'm not claiming a moonbase would be absolutely void of real science to do (though perhaps it sounded like that when I indulged in hyperbole). I'm saying, if you prioritized places you could put your money by scientific-bang-per-dollar, where would it fall? The other place I think the government should fund science and technology is as a matter of industrial policy. But here, I think they should do so where there's a 5-10 year window for the private sector to take over. The government can give a needed boost to get over the hump to where something's profitable -- after that the sky is no limit. I see that for zero-g manufacturing in orbit, say. Or wave power. I don't see it for a moonbase. It looks to me like a money hole 5, 10, 25, maybe 50 years out -- though less if it's built later. So my reality TV show crack relates not to the *total* worth of what we'd do in a moonbase, but to the *differential* moonbase. What would we get that we couldn't get *the equivalent value of* for a much cheaper price elsewhere? The only thing I see (but I may have the science of it wrong, or the engineering and financing -- I'm willing to be educated) that is *only available* or even *most efficiently available* in a moonbase are intangibles like prestige, honor, excitement, adventure, the feeling that we are once again going to the stars, the unifying force of a shared national commitment -- in other words, a reality TV show. We'd get some good science *too*, I'm sure -- just *less* than we would for the same money elsewhere. How long are your 8-12 moon settlers going to be up there? How often are you going to ship them food? (How much does it cost to ship a day's rations to the moon as opposed to shipping it to Earth orbit?) And how are you going to keep them from getting cancer? Actually I'm all for the Chinese building the first moonbase. They're building all those tall buildings too. Let them have the expensive prestige items, they can use them. Does anyone want to wade in here with some references? URLs? Or surely there must be some real rocket scientists on the board? I feel I have now talked a great deal for how very little I know.
Benjamin Rosenbaum Man, I feel like I've wandered into a presidential campaign! It's all exaggeration and distortions, folks, don't listen to him -- his mother was a carnival huckster and his father smelled of elderberries. Most of Ben's arguments put the cart before the horse. He seems to think that we shouldn't bother with a moonbase until somehow our world is so perfect and we're so great at every technology and human aspect required that we can just clap our hands and presto kazam, it self-assembles like magic. This is a particularly strange philosophy given that we're writing and posting our remarks with PCs, electronics that are a direct byproduct of R&D associated with the original Kennedy-era space program. We learn by doing, my friend, by taking first steps and seeing what problems arise. You don't get better at off-planet settlements by building automated satellites -- you get better at building automated satellites. Ben writes: "...colonizing Vinland is so much easier for Vikings than colonizing the moon will be for us: ultimately, the Vikings had the option of just going native." Hot dogs and motorcycles, my friend. Vikings versus the USA is no contest. And then you go on to talk about the dangers of cloning? What? As for space tethers, totally possible. I'll personally bid that contract at, oh, $25 billion. Again, you'd have to start building one and then deal with complications and cost overruns as they come up, getting more efficient as you go. Ben continues: "You're not really suggesting there are experiments we can only do *on* the moon that will help old people, right? You're saying there are experiments that we can do perfectly fine right here, but that we will only do if we are going to the moon." Hell yes there are experiments that we can ONLY do on the moon, unless you can exactly recreate that environment in a lab (possible, I guess, in a vast orbital station with a much larger price tag). And some of them will benefit the old and infirm. I never touted geriatrics as the sole reason to go, or even a main reason. We got into this debate because of your contention that there was no "actual science" to do on the moon, which I felt was outrageously dim for an imagination of your caliber. I gave you the beginnings of a long list and I'm not even a rocket scientist, ha ha. More Ben: "It's just when people actually say, 'okay, let's do this now, with your tax dollars' and I look at the state of our society and technology that I say, whoa! Hold on a sec! We haven't done a tenth of the much cheaper and more profitable things we can do in orbit, and this is going to totally steal NASA's budget for real science." Surprise! I'm with you on this one 110% (again). I say, don't shuffle NASA's current budget, just give them another $12 billion. Give 'em 50! Moonbases not bombs, baby. (And let's not even talk about the military advantages of a moonbase, or the sheer necessity of preventing the Chinese from having sole possession. Robert Heinlein's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" would drive you bonkers, I'm sure, since the premise is using the moon as a penal colony much like the British used Australia, and the rebellion of that colony. Fun stuff, high fiction, but he's dead right that it's a prime location for military dominance of Earth... (Easy now. I voted for the other guy.) You put eight or twelve people on the moon because it's a LOT easier than scooping out your vast underground city. A first step. JC
Jeff Carlson <JffCarlson@aol.com> I'm back to argue with Jeff about the moonbase! "Vikings, schmikings. I've heard Flat Earthers use that comparison before, and it's a cute analogy but it's not even apples to oranges, it's more like hot dogs to motorcycles" wrote he. Flat Earthers? I am confused. Do they not believe North America exists either? I think the analogy is illustrative -- there is a vast difference between going somewhere and saying "look, I was here!" and making a viable, permanent settlement. You're right that it's a stretched analogy, but only because colonizing Vinland is so much easier for Vikings than colonizing the moon will be for us: ultimately, the Vikings had the option of just going native. "I know $12 billion sounds like a big fat price tag for a moonbase, but it's only a fraction of one percent of the annual budget" -- this is strictly analogous to saying, "hey, I already weigh 500 pounds -- a few more cheeseburgers won't hurt!" "Many of our social and environmental ills are the result of laziness, greed, incompetence, ignorance, indifference" -- indeed. At all levels and nooks and crannies of society. One example of which would be Presidential budgetary recklessness, including hugely expensive grandstanding replacing real science. "That's like saying we shouldn't build a house because you think concrete isn't good enough for a foundation, you want something cool like anti-gravity plates" : I believe it's closer to saying "Thanks, but I don't think I'll invest in your human cloning company just yet." "All of the technology required here is off-the-shelf, and has been for decades." Not for living in space. The real problems, as you note, are biology, not physics. Humans don't do well in hard radiation. (I know, you're going to build giant underground moon cities with hydroponics farms with all the bulldozers you've rocketed up there. That's just on a whole other scale of magnitude than sending up a couple of guys in a tin can). I like the telescope idea. I still doubt it justifies the cost of getting Pete up there, sending him food each week, and treating his cancer when he gets back. Compared to just nudging the orbiting distributed SuperHubble components into a little higher orbit with, say, tethers. "I meant as a life science, because there will be many long-term physical challenges in zero- and low-gravity environs, not the least of which is dealing with bone and muscle loss.": this is sort of a central kind of argument for this kind of grandiose science, and it befuddles me. I guess the line of reasoning is that "we as a society are only willing to pay for research into bone and muscle loss that might be a boon to old people if we get a really cool reality TV show out of it". Perhaps this is true, but it strikes me as very odd. You're not really suggesting there are experiments we can only do *on* the moon that will help old people, right? You're saying there are experiments that we can do perfectly fine right here, but that we will only do if we are going to the moon. We have to pay to fling all those bulldozers up there to build the underground moon cities, in order to be willing to pay for the geriatrics research. Yikes. Dude, I totally want to live in an underground moon city. I totally want to write about underground moon cities. It's just when people actually say, "okay, let's do this now, with your tax dollars" and I look at the state of our society and technology that I say, whoa! Hold on a sec! We haven't done a tenth of the much cheaper and more profitable things we can do in orbit, and this is going to totally steal NASA's budget for real science. It's a lot like cloning, actually. Cloning people someday: Sure, why not? Cloning now for stem cells and research: sure, with appropriate sensible precautions. Cloning people now, just because it's cool, even though they will be as messed up as Dolly the sheep: are you nuts?
Benjamin Rosenbaum The interview with Joe Haldeman is excellent. I really enjoyed reading it. :)
E Thomas <ert_here@nospam.hotmail.com> An interesting interview with Joe Haldeman. I first read The Forever War when I was about fourteen and living in Saginaw, MI. It made a very deep impression, and contributed to a conversion from being fascinated by war and militarism (typical 14-year-old boy, unfortunately) to gradually becoming an anti-war activist in college (1st Gulf War). The Forever War changed the way I saw violence. I would never again read war novels with the same bloodthirsty naivete. (I read Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five during the same period -- another key influence in my changing values.) After my family relocated to Daytona Beach, FL, when I was fifteen, I was thrilled to discover that Haldeman lived nearby. I saw him speak at some lady's club luncheon (where I was the only person under forty, and the only male). I was struck by his gentleness and thoughtfulness, but was far too intimidated to do more than get his autograph. I graduated high school and went to college in Gainesville, FL -- where, I discovered, Haldeman now lived. By that time, I had forgotten all about science fiction and spent all my mind-time reading poetry and learning about literary theory. I kept my signed copy of The Forever War, however, and found myself reading it from time to time (I've read it at least 4 times in my life). At that point I realized that The Forever War really isn't an "anti-war" book in the sense that Haldeman set out to write one -- the book's success grows from Haldeman's commitment to his character; the anti-war politics emerge from the reader's identification with, and sympathy for, Mandella. The Forever War is the story of one individual who is caught up in a vast, allegedly rational system that grinds people up in the service of ultimately irrational goals. This imaginative sympathy is probably the most solid basis of any anti-war sentiment (meaning that it's less sterile and more compelling than an abstract rejection of violence or ideological opposition to imperialism). I never had any contact with Haldeman in Gainesville, although he did join and support a nonprofit library and activist center I helped to found there -- the Civic Media Center and Library. After graduation, I moved to Boston, MA -- and shortly thereafter discovered that Haldeman was teaching at MIT. (This just struck me as weird. I wondered: Is this man following me?) Now as a "grown up" (ha!) I read science fiction again (not really as a fan, I'm afraid; it'd be most accurate to say that of the forty or so authors I most love, ten of them write SF). I confess that I was deeply disappointed with the sloppily written Forever Free, and also with the much more ideological Forever Peace. The protagonist of Forever Peace is considerably less engaging than is Mandella -- worse, the book's solution to war seems positively apocalyptic, a spruced-up version of SF's discredited old ideology of benevolent but totalitarian technocracy. (Perhaps this is why it won the "triple crown"?) Of course, perhaps that's just the resistance of my individualistic, humanistic old mind to the emergence of a new one. Three and a half years ago I moved to San Francisco (where I protested and blocked traffic with a few hundred thousand other people disgusted by the start of the second Gulf War). No sign of Haldeman yet, although his presence may be inevitable at this point in my life.
Jeremy Smith <techassist@indypress.org> Whoops! Me again. I've finished my writing for the day & am loose on the Net. A few more counterpoints-- Vikings, schmikings. I've heard Flat Earthers use that comparison before, and it's a cute analogy but it's not even apples to oranges, it's more like hot dogs to motorcycles -- just nonsensical. I know $12 billion sounds like a big fat price tag for a moonbase, but it's only a fraction of one percent of the annual budget (and it's spread out over several years). Yes, there will be overruns. A lot of them. But like Susan says in her editorial, we're a civilization that should be able to have our cake and eat it, too. Many of our social and environmental ills are the result of laziness, greed, incompetence, ignorance, indifference -- all very human traits that won't be solved any time soon. Not with a measly $12 billion. As for waiting for some better period in future life-times to act on this crazy idea, that's like saying we shouldn't build a house because you think concrete isn't good enough for a foundation, you want something cool like anti-gravity plates. All of the technology required here is off-the-shelf, and has been for decades. Sure, there's room for improvement, always will be, but you only learn by doing and acting. Meanwhile, you have my vote for cleaning up Mother Earth. You're 110% right about our oceans, overfishing, pollution, the looming ecodisaster, opportunities in farming and clean energy alternatives (this must be where I plug "Pressure," my second story for Strange Horizons, which centers around the idea of harnessing wave/tidal power!). Astronomy. Imagine a Hubble telescope umpteen times more powerful that's not in an orbit that decays and is damned more convenient to fix when a component fails. "Hey, Pete, why don't you run out there and give it a kick." And if you get good enough at this, sort of like in Robert Charles Wilson's recent novel "Blind Lake," you don't have to bother with interstellar probes, you can just take a peek at ol' Tau Ceti and see if it's worth visiting. Geriatrics. I never meant that we should ship old people to the moon. Lift-off would kill too many of them, and think how hard it would be to visit grandma! I meant as a life science, because there will be many long-term physical challenges in zero- and low-gravity environs, not the least of which is dealing with bone and muscle loss. And this is the sort of stuff that might extend normal life expectancies down here on Earth (yeah, yeah, only to those with great health insurance), so we can continue these debates until we're a hundred and twenty. Next time I see you, Ben, I'm buying. JC
Jeff Carlson <JffCarlson@aol.com> Holy freeze-dried orange juice, Ben! This is why I usually just keep my mouth shut and nod pleasantly. ;) A few small points-- That was 20,000 years to Proxima Centauri, our nearest neighbor at 4.2 lightyears. Tau Ceti is more than double that at 11.9. Yes, there are many cool ways to move much faster than the Mars probes, but all of them would be easier to test, build and launch from space, outside Earth's gravity well. A moonbase would be a handy spot to gear up. As for mining, the point isn't to schlep the ores from the moon back to Earth; you'd just start building your intersolar/interstellar probes, baby! And your auto-mecha pharmaceutical satellites, your solar power sats, your comm sats, etc. No need to keep throwing Earth's resources up into orbit. JC
Jeff Carlson <JffCarlson@aol.com> One word about interstellar probes (since Jeff raised the point in an email to me), and about economic and scientific history, and then I'll shut up and let you have your forum back. At current levels of propulsion technology, Jeff points out, interstellar probes are impractical -- it would have taken the Mars probes 20,000 years to reach Tau Ceti. There was an excellent SH article recently (link, anyone?) on other ways of doing it -- e.g lightweight solar sails driven by lasers on Mercury. I believe the estimate was that to run the one probe would take electrical power output equivalent to the entire power usage on Earth today. That's pretty far out. Not gonna happen this century. The question is, though, what actions now are more likely to have that Tau Ceti probe launch by 2150? I would submit that frittering away massive amounts of capital on a manned moonbase which -- as compared with largely unmanned, near-earth orbit structures -- has minimal scientific or technical benefit -- is unlikely to get us there, compared with many kinds of ambitious, challenging science we could do here on Earth, or nearby. Materials science and bioscience to help fight ecocollapse, and basic research. I'd wager that the Vikings could have poured their entire collective gross national product into maintaining their New World settlements in the year 1000, and it *still* wouldn't have made a difference. Maybe by bankrupting the home countries, they could have lasted 100 years instead of 50 (or however long it was). They didn't have the basic-science technological base -- the astrolabe, knowledge of how to fight scurvy, etc. -- that would allow them to maintain supply lines, they didn't have a "killer app" (such as the literally murderous app of gold/cotton/tobacco/rum/sugar/slaves in the later European expansions), and in particular they didn't have the economic and social resources (limited-liability corporations, exploding population) or the military power (good steel and guns). Pouring your money into applied science and engineering and social experiments before you have the fundamental backdrop is futile and self-destructive. Once we have a thriving near-earth orbit manufacturing sector that makes truckloads of money without government subsidies and runs almost entirely on waldoes and autonomous-agent robots, with corporeal human maintainance in spacesuits being a rarity, and we have some experience building real self-sustaining biospheres larger than a paperweight, and we have our house in order ecologically -- then it's time to talk about a moonbase which is more than an excercise in political grandstanding and mass-media entertainment product. I'm all for us reaching the stars; but we have plenty of work to do here first.
Benjamin Rosenbaum I'm certainly not an expert on either undersea or lunar exploration. My global point is that there are many scientific wonderlands that can inspire us, and we seem hooked on particular ones. But what the heck -- while we're riffing: How far down is an excellent question, but the thing is that unlike with space exploration, undersea exploration scales gradually. You can go down as far as current science permits, and then a little farther. The oxygen thing : first, you can run a pipe from the surface to the ocean bottom and pump air through it: that is much simpler than rocketing up oxygen in bottles across enormous distances. Second, you are surrounded by oxygen in water: electrolysis powered by geothermally generated electricity should be a trivial way to get oxygen. Oxygen and water are nice things for human beings to have. Count fish, indeed; there is an enormous amount of science to be done down there -- finds in the ocean trenches have revolutionized our understanding of biology in recent decades. Things with fundamentally different biochemistry, as alien as life can be on Earth; not to mention geology, ecology, etc. Sure, you can do it remotely by robot, but then, you can do space science remotely by robot too. Beyond geothermal energy, there are a lot of ways to generate power in the sea -- huge thermocouples, and wave power, being two. I don't think the safety concerns are wholly analogous. Sure, much of the challenge would be about ways to deal with pressure (which could help spur the coming massive revolution in materials science, which started with buckyballs and high temperature superconductors and nanotubes). But for a host of other small problems and safety issues beyond getting crushed to death vs. asphyxiating in vacuum, it's awfully nice to be a few hours from our home ecosystem rather than days or months. Sure, Aquaboy-style bubble cities are not an answer to overpopulation. But ocean issues are much more critical and pressing in terms of real-world problems for masses of people than space science. The behavior of the deep seas, especially with regard to carbon dioxide saturation, is critical with regard to global warming (aka the drowning of Venice and Bangladesh). The seas have enormous, mostly untapped potential to feed the world (and a quickly rising portion of world nutrition, I believe) -- but they are also being massively overfished; the current death spiral "tragedy of the commons" in ocean management may soon lead to ecocollapse and a huge crisis in food production (and I have this on the authority of The Economist, not a magazine known for its radical environmentalist politics). Coral reefs, which serve critical functions in the regulation of the world biosphere, are dying at a devastating rate. What would it take to learn how not merely to manage, but to heal the oceans? To seed new coral reefs, or simulate their effects? I'm imagining not so much a bubble city at the bottom -- which would be not terribly efficient -- but, maybe, an enormous structure based on an existing oil rig, with a huge vertical superconducting thermocouple sunk into the ocean floor, plankton and coral farms, geological and oceanic and ecological research stations at the bottom and at various levels in between, and so on. Interesting legal ramifications too, if you built a city on this EcoRig, powered and fed by the sea -- talk about offshore! What laws, other than international nautical ones, would it be governed by? I don't really think this is likely to happen (not unless there's a "killer app" somewhere that makes it a moneymaking proposition to do something like this). But I don't see why a moonbase is a superior idea, other than that we're used to it. I'm skeptical about the "astronomy, physics, pharmaceuticals, geriatrics, manufacturing and mining" benefits of a moonbase. The astronomy, physics, pharmaceuticals and manufacturing seems like they could be done in near-earth orbit just fine, mostly automated, with perhaps occasional human repairs when necessary - though it might be more cost-effective to just build lots of cheap self-assembling components, shoot them up there, remote them into each other and when one breaks, have it self-destruct and shoot another one up. We're realistically talking about only the bits that you need zero-gravity for. Mining is an old SF standby, but what possible ore (in this age of plummeting commodity prices) is worth schlepping across that distance? I think that's a fantasy. Same with geriatrics, if you're talking about actually moving old people to the moon - it's never going to be more than some tiny, superrich handful -- in which case it's really just another variant on the reality TV show idea. I shouldn't say never. If there was some absolutely compelling reason to move a million people to the moon, I don't doubt we're capable of it as a species (though a million is still a drop in the bucket). But I don't believe it's ever going to make any economic sense. I don't see any mechanism by which it could become the kind of engine of wealth creation that computers, or the telephone, or airplanes, or railroads, or nanotech, or robotics, or genetic engineering, or transatlantic seafaring are. It strikes me more like those other SF ideas that sound neat -- hovercrafts, personal rocket packs -- but are never going to hit that exponential utility curve whereby falling prices drive and are driven by increasing (voluntary, not government-mandated) real usage. We had hovercars, you know. They worked just fine. The last one was decomissioned recently, actually -- I think it did the British channel run. The chunnel killed it. A less romantic, less "Space-Age", less fanciful solution to the problem of getting from England to France. But a better one.
Benjamin Rosenbaum More re: "Finding the Future" from another troublemaker! :) Undersea cities would be a fine place to practice off-planet settlements, since many of the engineering challenges are similar, but how far under are we talking? If they're deep-sea, or even off the shoreline, you'd still have to ship oxygen in cannisters at first, until they establish the same kind of gardens that an off-planet settlement would require. As for safety concerns, that's apples to oranges, fighting either constant, crushing pressure or endless vacuum. Put your moon settlement subsurface, however, and you're safe as a bug. No such luck building under an ocean. Neither deep-sea cities or space settlements will ever be any kind of solution to overpopulation, unless we invent low-cost wormhole mass teleportation! (The problem is that people continue to breed while they build.) As for cost, yes, you could construct a deep-sea "house" for 12 aquanauts for less than the price of an equivalent lunar station, but then what do you do with it? Count fish? Submersibles and remote-operated vehicles are accomplishing that now. Better would be to tap geothermal energy sources as in Peter Watts' Starfish books; your installations could pay for themselves. Gotta love the Hollywood pitch -- "Okay, think Big Brother meets Apollo 13!" -- but a permanent settlement on the moon has both immediate and far-reaching potential covering (not just) astronomy, physics, pharmaceuticals, geriatrics, manufacturing and mining. This *is* actual science! Obviously you'd need more than 12 folks there to handle all this. But you have to take that first step to begin, and the first step will be the hardest. In any case, alas, the current administration's proposal is most likely only election-year blather, although a new space-race with the Chinese will eventually get us moving. The right thing for the wrong reasons. Just my buck-fifty (inflation, you know). Aquaboy rocks! JC
Jeff Carlson <JffCarlson@aol.com> In response to the editorial ("Finding the Future," by Susan Marie Groppi)... Sure, so the current proposed space project is fueled by politics... but so was the space-race in the 1960s too. (The Russia Vs. USA space-race - remember? The Cold War? Anyone? What an old fart I must be.) There's always been a queasy alliance between conflicting military/propagandistic/civilian objectives in space exploration, and there is NO reason this should end in the future. But to condemn all spaceflight simply because "our motives aren't pure!" would be silly. People will always do things for more than one reason...
A.R. Yngve <n/a> I thought the article on prions was informative. However, I think it is also a slight bit alarmist and (from a scientist's point of view) a little condescending. While I agree the danger of prions is real and the information presented is correct, I would have liked to see the links backing up the research at the end, per a normal scientific article, and a less biased view during presentation. Articles like this tend to be blown out of proportion by people and I dislike seeing that because alarm and panic does not help. Dawn
Dawn B. <zhaneel69@hotmail.com> Regarding "Finding the Future" -- what about undersea cities? They'd be cheaper, and probably a useful first step to a really permanent off-planet settlement (as opposed to the "ok, wait, wait, your next shipment of oxygen in canisters is coming right up" kind of "settlement" we're realistically talking about at the moment), and probably a lot safer, and probably better science, and a much, much, much more realistic approach (albeit still not terribly realistic) to the old "solution to overpopulation" excuse for people-in-space exploration. And am I the only one who thinks undersea cities would be really cool? Am I the only one who watched Aquaboy on the Saturday morning cartoons? And with the money saved by not trying to get large, bulky humans and human environments out of the gravity well, we could send some really cool *robots* into space -- even to nearby stars -- and do some actual science, as opposed to the reality TV show that would be (honestly now) the only actual product of a near-term "permanent settlement" on the Moon.
Benjamin Rosenbaum Beautiful article on Curses! I learned a lot from it, let me tell you... (and got a lot of story ideas too*G*)
jessica howe <yanallefish@hotmail.com> Found your site through the link on Ursula K. Le Guin's site. Strong pull-quote on that site promised a literary and engaging magazine. That promise was fulfilled. Will check back regularly. Gail S.
Gail I really enjoyed "St. Ailbe's Hall." What a fantastic metaphorical story, dealing directly with the prejudices that exist in today's society, and today's churches. The Lord used parables to explain the concepts of the Kingdom of God to his disciples, and this parable is a good following of that ideal. Excellent work.
Mark Booker <tigermark@charter.net> I just finished St. Ailbe's Hall and all I could think was that if there were a few more priests with Father Andrew's depth of spirit the Catholic Church would not be in the state it is here in the US. I do think that the earlier poster (Dan?) has a point that there was room for some more solid discussion on the nature of the soul, but I was raised a thinking Catholic and went to a Jesuit college and just love that sort of thing. It was great to see a person of faith in a SF story who was not the stupid, misguided or the villain of the piece. I think that's become a rare thing in a genre that is open-minded about almost everything else.
Mary Fitzpatrick <mary.fitzpatrick@amity-unlimited.com> I enjoyed Marian Kensler's article. By chance I had last weekend pulled Peter Green's book on the Persian wars off the shelf, and yesterday encounted the "Plataean Oath", which ends: 'If I remain faithful to the oath's terms, may my city be free from sickness; if not, may it become sick. And may my city go unsacked; if not, may it be sacked. And may my (land) bear (its fruits); if not, may it be barren. And may women bear children like to their parents; if not, (may they bear) monsters. And may cattle bear issue like to cattle; if not, monsters.'
George Jansen <gjansen@aflcio.org> It was nice to see the lyrics to the rarely heard 1977 Hawkwind song as an introduction to this piece.
Jeffrey J. Lyons <lyonsjj@comcast.net> Jeremy Smith writes: “[ROBOTA] induces instantaneous nostalgia, tribal memories of afternoons spent doodling on the living room floor after a full morning's diet of Space: 1999 and classic Trek reruns.” Well nailed. Watching the CGI “preview”, flipping through the book in the shop, that's exactly what I felt — instantaneous nostalgia. Not $35 worth of nostalgia, though. (Now maybe if Chiang had gotten Iain Banks instead of Orson Scott Card to do the writing . . .)
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> Hino Horror, a new series by Japan's master of horror manga, will be released in the USA in March.
Clive France <clive@dhp-online.com> Enjoyed Marian Kensler's piece on CURSES. Add the traditional footnotes, and you have a winning PhD thesis. I'll need to check, but recall an article in the Skeptical Inquirer analysing/refuting the Mummy's Curse on the Earl of Canaervon & colleagues. Seems that those who died did so at "reasonable" ages some years after the "curse." I lived in Alcester, Warks, UK a few miles from Stratford-u-Avon. Alcestrians were quite angry at Bill-the-Quill since their own village is much older (the origins of their Court Leet is reported in the Domesday Book as being "lost in the far-distant past"!). Anyroad, local legend has it that four bold Alcestrians raided Shakespeare's tomb but while carting the body to Alcester the CURSE struck --the horse bolted, killing the doomed body-snatchers. Stan Kelly-Bootle
Stan Kelly-Bootle <skb@atdial.net> "Century to Starboard" by Liz Williams, and the accompanying illustration by Ursula Freer, really hit the spot. The story seemed to me to be just the right length, and the protagonist grew both intellectually and emotionally. The illustration was perfect, and prompted me to look at Ms. Freer's gallery from a year or so ago. Thanks!
Amy Sisson <amysisson@prodigy.net> I found John Garrison's review of Kalpa Imperial insightful and thought provoking. Mr. Garrison's offers a thorough critique of the book, giving us a taste of the intertwined stories' literary style, strength of subject matter, translation and potential shortfalls. I enjoyed John's way of identifying Gorodischer's traits to other writers. As a fan of Eco and Le Guin, I look forward to reading the book.
Erin Keefe <redlyght@yahoo.com> I didn't claim that the story portrayed the Church in a negative light. Leo's objections seem to come down to the likelihood that letting the enhanced dogs into the Church will drive people away -- that's hardly based in doctrine. It's more what I'd expect to hear from Safeway. Frankly, I think there's an exciting and informed debate to be had about whether raising an animal's intelligence qualifies it for a soul -- but I didn't find that in this story. We do get to find out what Andrew's doctor thinks about him jogging, however. Utter irrelevance is given plenty of space. The people who fundamentally object to Jasper's churchgoing are presented as unreasonable, abusive and violent. They are never permitted to give reasoned arguments or ones based in theology. That's like portraying all anti-abortionists as the minority who murder doctors and torch clinics.
Dan Dan-- normally, the fiction editors try to stay out of discussions about the fiction we publish, but as someone who not only helped select the story for publication but who was also raised Catholic and was for a time a lay minister in the Church, I can't quite bring myself to let this go without response. I think you're doing the story a disservice to say that there are no rational voices opposed to the baptism. The entire email dialogue with Leo shows a fairly sound theological line of reasoning for denying Jasper access to the rites of the Church, and Father Andrew himself continues to have doubt throughout much of the story. The intellectual heart of the story is the idea that Jasper does have a soul, so it's not surprising that both sides of the argument aren't given equal weight, but I have trouble seeing how the Church is portrayed in a particularly negative light here.
Susan Marie Groppi <susan@sugarspun.net> Why does St Ailbe's Hall avoid giving any rational voice to arguments there might be against permitting the enhanced dogs into the Church? The three central characters (Andrew, Lisa and Leo) all seem to agree that the dogs should be allowed in. Only the off-stage and violent, abusive people apparently disagree. By presenting them as only being able to disagree through violence and abuse, the story makes out that there are no valid arguments against the idea. Even when one of the opponents finally is allowed to speak, they have nothing rational or theological to say, it seems. How convenient for the story's case. This 'story' is just propaganda. I'm amazed it takes it so long to get its one-sided message across. Maybe enhanced dogs, if such ever come to exist, should be allowed to become Catholics. But there are bound to be valid arguments that could be raised against the idea, although you won't find them here. Of course, if the story did include any of them, it might have to refute them with something more meaningful than cute puppies and dogs that can brush their teeth.
Dan Thanks 4 interviewing Brandon Massey. He is a wonderful person and talented writer. I hope to submit some of my poetry to your fine magazine. Thanks 4 being here!
Eve Hall/ author & poet I began reading St. Ailbe's Hall by Naomi Kritzer as I would any other sci-fi work. Then as I started in it there was deeper material there. The work seems well written and the story line follows through well. It could not have been done right in only one part. There's an important message in the story that should be heard by many people in many places and I highly recommend it. A wonderful piece!
Gene Boecker <geneboecker@hotmail.com> John Garrison is a force to be reckoned with, both on and off the dance floor!
Jocelyn Hill <jotoes@yahoo.com> Thanks, Strange Horizons for providing reviews of books that I might not normally take a look at. To wit, Kalpa Imperial. As a huge fan of non-US SF, this review motivated me to go out and buy this book. It was wonderful and the review was spot on. Keep up the great work, SH, and keep an eye out for those non-US SF books.
karl s. <karl@messaginglab.com> Agreed. Review of Kalpa Imperial stands out among those I've read recently -- here and elsewhere. Both nice to get a real sense of the book from the review ... and also have the reviewer use the book to make some larger observations about storytelling, narrative, and history. Bravo.
Bill G. Re. the review of Kalpa Imperial: I thought this was a masterful evocation of a book I'm now looking forward to read. The reviewer had an assured yet accessible style that was a real pleasure to read. I'm also pleased to see SH writers looking at books in translation, and books from afar. (The review of Cosmos Latinos could also get a shout-out, here.) Please keep more articles like this coming! On another note: I agree with some earlier poster(s)- it would be nice if the posts on this board could be organized thematically a little bit; i.e. not just have the board be an unstructured catch-all... M
Vanessa Vidavitkhan Dawn, I'm afraid you've pinpointed my real weakness in writing editorials. Or in writing anything else at all--I tend to trail off rather than decisively end. But it is, as they say, a known problem, and I'm working on it. :)
Susan Marie Groppi <susan@sugarspun.net> Re: Finding an editorial voice I like reading the editorials of magazines too. And sometimes I find them more interesting than the fiction. For instance, I chose to read the editorial this week (1/19) before the story. And as much as I agree with what was said, I was left "wanting". Susan did great past editorials talking about SH and where you guys are going, but this one felt almost unfinished. I dunno, maybe its just me. I wanted to say that while I enjoyed the beginning, the end wasn't final. Which I suppose is to be expected if Susan is still finding her voice. I encourage her to continue that search, and perhaps look back to her earlier editorials for inspiration. I think her voice then was great and I'd love to see more about her thoughts SH and SH's place in the SF/F world. Dawn
Dawn B. <zhaneel69@hotmail.com> Loved St. Alibe's Hall. Can't wait for Part II.
Jill Hughes <jillhughes2@yahoo.com> that did not help at all
s <s> I discovered SH a few months ago and as I've read it, kept thinking "these stories are *great* I ought to send them some money". And I enjoyed the first part of "St. Ailbe's Hall" so much it prompted me to actually do it. I can't wait for the conclusion!
Dot Imm <imms@earthlink.net> I just read "St. Ailbe's Hall", and I thought it was brilliant. I can't wait to read part 2!
anna 'Carnival' was just about the most excellent poetic thing I have read anytime recently. Lovely.
Rabbit <caudelac@msn.com> Just read Naomi Kritzer's "St. Ailbe's Hall: Part I." I'm a devoted dog lover, and how we differentiate our own species from others (whether biological or technological) has long fascinated me. Kritzer has me totally hooked with this tale, and I can hardly wait to read Part II. More great writing from Naomi Kritzer!
Paula Fleming <p.fleming*at*att.net> Thanks, Jennifer, "Carnival" was a wonderful poem!
marymary On nuclear propulsion--don't forget Los Alamos' project DUMBO, a short path, laminar flow, radial heat exchanger reactor--about 10 times the thrust to weight ratio of NERVA...The Analog article on the project estimated that Dumbo could have put about 50 MIR-sized payloads in orbit for about as much pollution as one small French Pacific bomb test....--an order of magnitude better than an ORION Launch from the Earth's surface.
George M. Ewing <wa8wte@juno.com> The War of the Flowers is one of the best SF stories I've read in a long time. Great that it was woman-focused and dealt with mother-daughter relationships without letting the science take over the plot too much. Nice.
Jill Elaine Hughes <jillhughes2@yahoo.com> Hmm. The American Heritage, which is usually pretty good with etymology, cites Rus (or rather Rusî) as an Old Russian word for a group of Vikings... which, admittedly, is not quite the way Arturo Rubio used the word.
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> Vikings from Sweden were known among the Slavs as the Varangians, never as the Rus.
PRIME Hey, SH readers: Back in November or so, someone who contacted me after reading one of my stories here on SH sent me a story (about androids and dysfunctional relationships, as I recall), which I agreed to give feedback on. I seem to have lost the story, the email, and the author's name. If you're the author, and you're still interested in getting some feedback, could you send it to me again? Sorry about that.
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> "In the Late December" is wonderful! Thank you so much for sharing. A great meld of current folklore with SF.
Meg <mfhenderson@hotmail.com> Sam-- we're working on a new user forum, one where comments on individual pieces would be grouped together. Sorry we don't have it ready yet!
Susan Marie Groppi <editor@strangehorizons.com> Hi, I'm a bit confused. Is there no place that comments on individual pieces are kept? I was reading a great fiction series (Green Grow the Rushes, Oh, Jay Lake), and was looking to see what others commented on in the stories, but the "Reader's Comments" brought me to what seems to be the forum for the entire site. I scrolled down and people we talking about low traffic. Is this why there is just one forum? Still, it would be nice for people to see comments on a single story or article, especially if they come to it long after it was written, and so people are no longer talking about it in the forums. Anyhow, great site, thanks.
Sam <asbestos999@yahoo.com> Ramesh, Why should the article be considered nonsense when all the patents were nonsense? If it weren't for all the people who tried to patent an invention that didn't work, then the writer of that article wouldn't be so skeptical. Every time someone comes out with a new motion patent should we all just clap and cheer and ignore the very real possibility that it will be a hoax?
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> Your Comment about perpetual motion machine is absolute nonsense. If you don't know doesn't mean it is not possible. It depends on what is perpetual motion machine in your dictionary. I asked the same question to Patent office and they said if you get energy out without feeding energy in will be considered perpetual motion machine. I asked if so, solar cells derives its energy needs from light from the environment, is it perpetual motion machine (disregard the motion part of it). Is there a proof that permanent magnets store energy ? can you show me a proof? It is assumed. Only in Electromagnet all your so called energy storage works, not in permanent magnet. Permanent magnet actively interacts with environment. This will open out a big debate. As long as there is a result, result will speak for itself not you and I. I am asking one other question, You know about existing DC motors, Can you proove it works only based on the repulsive force as described in books and by so called professors. I can prove, it definitely requires attractive force to work. (There your funda's itself has a bug). Who is responsible for your misunderstanding? Repulsive force will only scatter and only the attractive force will converge. How the solar cell interacts with light the same way permanent magnet interacts with most basic energy form that is magnetic energy. When permanent magnet is introduced in a system, then it definitely acts as a driving source of energy. in few years the society will change a lot. Poor governments doesn't understand and blinded by business greed. One day such breakthrough will definitely hit them hard. American Government can fool only Americans and not another country people. The same is true for all the countries. By writing like this you are only fooling your people and again repeating the same old / outdated story. You are not taking / letting the people to take a keen look at the potential new technology. Ramesh Vasudevan
Ramesh Vasudevan <rameshvasu@magnodrive.org> That's correct -- there isn't a prozine category, so no professional magazine (whether print or online) can be nominated for a Hugo in its own right. Of course, stories from Sci Fiction can be nominated in the appropriate categories, and Ellen is eligible in the Pro Editor category as always. Similarly with The Infinite Matrix and Eileen. (While I'm plugging other online magazines, I should mention that plenty of them are eligible in the semiprozine category.) A couple of years ago, SH was nominated in the special Best Website category. But that was a one-time category; each WorldCon committee gets to decide whether they want to award a special Hugo, and most decide not to. And even if they do, they get to decide what the category will be.
Jed <fiction@strangehorizons.com> Thanks Jed & Cheryl, that was exactly what I was looking for and was hoping would happen. Of course I'm mightily upset that I can't nominate SH for anything in its own right. Oh well, next year. Sucks to be one of two "professional" (my view of professional, not SFWA) E-zines. Question: Does that mean SciFiction isn't up for anything this year either?
Dawn B. Thanks for the plug, Jed! :-) More importantly, this is Hugo nominating time and many people will be asking themselves similar questions to Dawn's. Which is why I run a Hugo Recommendation List at Emerald City. The idea is simple: people are looking for ideas for things to nominate, so they go look at the list to see if it reminds them of something good, or gives them an idea of something to read. This is especially good for online fiction because I can link direct to the story. Of course it only works if people send recommendations to the list. So I need you guys to send me your favorites from SH (and elsewhere, of course) so I can list them. The site is read by a fair percentage of Hugo voters, so even if you don't have a vote yourself you can help influence how others vote.
Cheryl Morgan <cheryl@emcit.com> Thanks for asking, Dawn! In 2003, we published one novelette ("Poison," by Beth Bernobich) and about 45 original short stories (counting "Rushes" as a single work in twelve parts); all of that fiction is eligible to be nominated. (We also published three reprint short stories that aren't eligible.) You can see a list of all the stories we've published in our fiction archives. Mary Anne Mohanraj, who was editor-in-chief in 2003, is eligible to be nominated in the Best Professional Editor category. We're not a semiprozine, so you can't nominate the magazine itself in any category. There are several categories in which you can nominate our contributors, though, if you're so inclined, although in most of these categories you should not nominate people based on their work published in SH. Specifically: Those of our contributors who publish their work in fanzines and semiprozines can be nominated in the Best Fan Writer category. (Cheryl Morgan, for example, who's written several articles for us, is better-known in her own right as the editor of Emerald City, a Hugo-nominated online fanzine that's just reached its hundredth issue.) Similarly, artists whose art we've published may be eligible for Best Pro Artist or (for their work published elsewhere) Best Fan Artist. And finally, I'm pleased to report that fifteen of our contributors are currently eligible for the Campbell Award for best "new" author, which isn't a Hugo but works much like a Hugo. Greg Beatty, who is now eligible himself, wrote an article for us last fall discussing the Campbell and the five writers who were finalists for it in 2003; see that article for details about the award.
Jed <fiction@strangehorizons.com> Question for Hugo Nominations: What Hugo category or categories does SH qualify for this year? I do want to make sure SH gets recognition for its hard work and I've got a form to fill out. Thanks.
Dawn B. <zhaneel69@hotmail.com> Just read 'In the Late December'. What a great story. Sad and touching and original. My favourite Strange Horizons piece for a long time.
Patrick Samphire <PatrickSamphire@yahoo.co.uk> There are many versions of "Green Grow the Rushes, Oh"; some of them use "clothéd," others use "dresséd."
Jed Hartman <fiction@strangehorizons.com> It's clothe(grave accent)d all in green oh, not dressed.
Pete "Uh, Greg, the story 'In the Late December' was just plain weird. There were so many leaps of faith that I became tired. There were so many assumptions that needed to be made.... I usually like your stuff. better luck next time." That was a rather vague review, what assumptions were needed to be made? It was a speculative story with a beginning, middle, and end. Santa is fighting the last battle for matter as we know it. Leaps of faith? Bah.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> Uh, Greg, the story "In the Late December" was just plain weird. There were so many leaps of faith that I became tired. There were so many assumptions that needed to be made.... I usually like your stuff. better luck next time.
Gene Boecker <geneboecker@hotmail.com> I'm Krishna. Right now I am studying in diploma for IT & I plan to work my project on Steganography. I wish to take your help for the mathematics & logic used in Steganography. I'll wait for your reply.
krishna bhavsar <kriss7@indiatimes.com> I enjoy your documents. I like it. I want more information about steganography because I am doing IT diploma & I wish to present steganography as project. Please give me reply as soon as possible.
saumn patel <ssaumin@yahoo.com> Wonderful and accurate review of the new Battlestar Galactica. I was a fan of the original that actually looked forward to this "re-imagined" version. I don't have a problem with a female Starbuck and look forward to a new series that gives the folks at SciFi the time to flesh out the new characters.
Ed Hunter <edrhunter@bellsouth.net> I enjoyed very much "The Ice Princess" by Jae Brim, an evocative, wistful winter tale of beauty and sacrifice.
Vera Nazarian <vera.nazarian@sff.net> Greg van Eekhout's "In the Late December" blew me away. It's one of the best stories I've read all year.
Jenn Reese <jenn@sff.net> Greg's story "In the Late December" is profound and amazing. What a powerful way to round out the year for SH!
Vera Nazarian <vera.nazarian@sff.net> Thanks for the best Christmas present any reader can hope for, a great story. I enjoyed Greg van Eekhout's "In the Late December" just as much as "Show and Tell", and that's saying a lot.
SarahP <sprineas@msnNOSPAM.com> A fine, damned coherent holiday tale by Mr. van Eekhout. Who knew it was all up to Santa? :)
Michael J. Jasper <mjwrecked@yahoo.com> A particularly strong issue (12/22/03). Came here to read Greg van Eekhout's "In the Late December," which certainly deserves the raves it's been getting. . . and appreciated the chance to read Akas' assertion that " . . . literature can legitimately do other things as well, like exploring the fact that one man's ceiling is another man's floor." And the Allen poem and Sullivan review are also well-done. Kudos all around!
Peg Duthie <plduthie@PEANUTBUTTERhotmailJELLYcom> Nice interview with Cem Akaʂ. Just the idea of a short story collection entitled Secret Air Museum makes me regret that I haven’t gotten around to learning Turkish.
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> "In the Late December" - oh my, what a beautiful, shivery story. Definitely one to add to any holiday collection - it's a keeper.
Christine <Christineash@sbcglobal.net> Farscape is a wonderfully humorous, passionate, and intelligent form of modern storytelling. Will the creators do as Roddenberry had with Star Trek after its quick "demise" by NBC and make use of their characters on the big screen????
Alexandra <cassattartist@aol.com> "In the Late December" was simply awesome, one of the best stories Strange Horizons published this year.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> That was a fantastic poem by Mr. Allen.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> I always look forward to anything new by Theodora Goss. "Sleeping With Bears" didn't disappoint. You can't help but admire her unique style, wit, and imagination all wrapped up in an enjoyable literary package.
K.Z.Perry I enjoyed Jae Brim's "The Ice Princess." Wonderfully creepy and sad.
K. Z.Perry In response to the preceding comment (which is in reference to Danyel Fisher's review of O Brother, Where Art Thou?): I think you were led astray by a bit of slightly indirect phrasing in the first paragraph. What the author of the review was saying was that Virgil's Aeneid, the story of Aeneas founding Rome, follows the general structure of The Odyssey.
Jed Hartman <fiction@strangehorizons.com> Sorry to be a pedant but I thought I should point out that the epic 'The Odyssey' tells the story of Odysseus (or Ulysses as he was called by the Greeks - hence the title of Joyce's novel) returning from Troy. Surely the Aeneid is the work which chronicles the story of Aeneas?
E Girl <crazy_punk@postmaster.co.uk> "The Ice Princess" was haunting and evocative. The emotion was beautifully drawn. Kudos to Jae Brim!
Merrie Fuller <merrie@umich.edu> "Fetch" by David Moles almost brought me to tears.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> For the Twelve, by Jay Lake, was excellent, but most of us have come to expect nothing less from the man. Thanks to Strange Horizons for publishing the Rushes Cycle. -- david j.
david j. <davjonz@yahoo.com> Catching up on yet more reading . . . Catherine Dybiec Holm's "Crossroads" is a wonderful take on the "crossroads" folk tale -- the deal with the devil, selling one's soul to the priest in exchange for baseball games, and its resolution through a marvelously felt blend of Christian re-birth and Native beliefs. Thanks so much for a lovely read.
Paula Fleming <p.fleming*at*att.net> Catching up on some reading . . . Enjoyed Rudi Dornemann's "Sunfast, Shadowplay, and Saintswalk," a richly drawn take on All Saints Day, All Souls Day, and Carnival traditions in a world distinctly its own. Reminds me somewhat of something Thomas Ligotti would write, although probably not as fraught with suspense and characterization of Ligotti's work. Thanks for a good read.
Paula Fleming <p.fleming*at*att.net> Aynjel Kaye's "Circus of Regret" -- oh my, how fucking WOW can you get? Complex psychological realism where the characters find no easy answers and the fantasy and erotic elements are completely integrated with the mundane. Great artwork, too. Thanks for a moving read.
Paula Fleming <p.fleming*at*att.net> wierd
jeff <rudolph> I absolutely love the Jokka tales! I hope more stories are forthcoming!
Brandon <looa@rplo.com> Sleeping With Bears by Theodora Goss is brilliant, sweet, and charming all at once. With interest. It's a very interesting new take on the prejudice that people deal with every day.
kessily <kessily@aol.com> Beautiful, lucid story by Hannah Wolf Bowen; the last line gave me chills.
SarahP <sprineas@msnNOSPAM.com> Leah Bobet's "The Rose-Child Iterates" - what a nifty transformation of the tale. Makes me wish _I'd_ thought of it.
Peg Duthie <plduthieAThotmailDOTcom> I really enjoyed Severna Park's "The Island of Varos", especially the setting-induced style. Very beautifully written. And the illustration by Janet Chui is stunning. I was actually with Janet in Singapore the last last weeks while she was working on it, and am glad to see that it looks so good on the screen.
Frank Marshall <marshall@flencor.net> Not once has a story written by Nina Kiriki Hoffman disappointed. This time, she has surpassed herself. I always wondered why that show with the stuffed toy characters kept my attention--and I'm 52 years old. Leave it to Ms Hoffman to figure the whole thing out.
Gorden Russell <GordenCRussell@MSN.com> Hey! My name is liz henry too!!!! but im jus a kid. ok....enjoy ur day!
Liz Henry <Imstupidandsuperficial@hotmail.com> Re: Bears The first quirky line of "II. The Bride" was enough to pull me in. --Simon www.blurty.com/users/simono
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> me fascina la historia de cowboy bebop quisiera saber si hay historia paralelas que no se vieron en la serie y si me pueden mandar un pagina donde tenga toda historia de los personajes gracias atte "la vida es un sueño" gracias a esas palabras me dan ganas de vivir
nilton <niljo84@hotmail.com> Bears is brilliant. Makes all of us guys lacking heavy fur coats, a hibernation-friendly metabolism, and teeth that continue to grow throughout our lives feel a little inadequate, but that’s okay.
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> "Sleeping with Bears" was wonderful, playful, and fun. I really enjoyed reading it. (And that bit in Theodora Goss's bio, about the cats? I sympathize. Why oh why do they like paper so well?)
Erin Donahoe <erin@sff.net> What a lovely story, this Sleeping With Bears. Thanks for it.
Hannah Over the past year or so, the prospect of reading a new story by Theodora Goss has become one of the highlights of my literary life. Her latest story is no exception -- funny, touching, and perfectly off-kilter.
Tim Pratt Regarding "Indra's Rice" and the prospect of genetically altered foods I am reminded of such books as the recent "Prey" in which genetic experimentation lets loose a danger that can destroy the world. Another book warning" about the possible disasters of mankind's fooling around with DNA is a book called "Saint Jack and Toad". In this book homeless teens are kidnapped and taken to a lab in upstate New York to be kept in comas for the production of fetal tissue which is necessary for experimentation. In real life we see jelly fish DNA spliced into rats so we can have rats that glow green. How many sins (against man and God) will take place under the banner of the "new science"? And what dangers are we going to introduce into the world with our fooling around with DNA? In "Saint Jack" DNA is also called "The waters of Life" which is a reference to an apocalyptic vision in the Bible. Will we, with this new science, pollute the waters of life (DNA) as the bible (perhaps) says we will? Both "Prey" and "Saint Jack" are books warning us to be cautious in our experimentation in genetics. Perhaps the Bible is saying the same thing. Remember Murphy's Law, If something can go wrong, it will go wrong.
Maureen <mstuart59> I found your article interesting...however, I am looking for information in regards to a game developer that used to be located in Carlsbad, CA....it was called 'Parkplace Productions'. It was taken down by Sony in 1993. The company was in business for 5 years and developed the first john madden football, qb club, etc...most sports games of that time. The owner's name was Mike Knox...I wish I could locate this person because he owes me alot of money.........thanks
Ray <rayswanlund@excite.com> "from Frank" was pretty interesting to read. I've been falling behind on the poetry, I'll have to browse through the archives.
Simon Owens <SimonOwens@comcast.net> SH continues to astonish me with its content, in particular with the recent publications of "Sleeping With Bears" by Dora Goss and "The Dream Factory" by Jenn Reese. It's nice to see some light-hearted stories in here as well as the more thoughtful stuff. Can't wait for my membership card!
Jason Erik Lundberg <jlundberg@mindspring.com> theodora goss' SLEEPING WITH BEARS is fabulous, in all senses of the word, and shows her considerable range as a writer. stories like this one remind me that SH gives its gold away for free.
barth Thanks. Just: thanks.
Andy Jones "Indra's Rice" was the most beautiful story I have ever read. The prose was wonderful down to the last paragraph, the last sentence, the last word. The science was without flaw. This violates C.P. Snow. How can this be? I have been reading SF since 1957 and studied Genetic Analysis at Syracuse University. Everything was right with this story.
Gorden Russell <GordenCRussell@MSN.com> Just came across Mark Rudolph's poem, "Tarot Cards and UFOs." How marvellous! It explains, perhaps, why my old dog growls -- at his own heartbeat -- and crystallizes something essential about our fascination with whatever lies . . . beyond. Great use of the English language! Thank you.
Paula Fleming <p.fleming*at*att.net> Catching up (late as usual) with my SH reading... Thanks for the recent crop of interesting stories. I just want to comment on one of them in a little bit of detail: S. Evans' Indra's Rice. First, I generally welcome attempts by people from Western countries to put themselves in the shoes of alien cultures like my own (Indian). I found this story elegantly written, with many positive aspects, but there were two things that didn't ring true. One was the reference to Ganesh and the noose. Ganesh is one of the most benign gods in the Hindu pantheon and the author has obviously done her research on his many aspects (Remover of Obstacles, etc.) but I couldn't imagine Ganesh threatening anyone, however gently, with a noose. This is, of course, something that occurs in the protagonist's dream, so presumably it has more than a literal meaning, but that meaning wasn't totally clear to me except that it had to do with the urgency that the protagonist feels with regard to her research on rice. The other thing that felt a bit out of place was protagonist's relative lack of reaction to the destruction of Delhi and the death of millions -- even though she accomplishes the engineering of the soma-rice at the end, she still has to mourn the dead, which she doesn't do. Aspects of the story I liked included the beautiful use of language and the feeling so well-conveyed by the author of being inside the protagonist's head. The relationship with the husband was also poignantly portrayed. As an aside, readers might like to know that genetically engineered foods are highly controversial in India -- on the one hand, certain government bodies are trying to push them but also there has been a massive amount of grassroots resistance by farmers, including the burning of experimental fields belonging to multinational agribusinesses. Apart from economic, health and environmental considerations, GE crops come up against cultural and social attitudes toward food in general and grain in particular. You may find the site of former physicist and environmental activist Vandana Shiva interesting: http://www.vshiva.net/. Another aside: the fate of India and Pakistan is of course of deep personal interest to those of us who are from that region. When tensions heat up we live in dread that some terrible nuclear holocaust might be perpetrated on either side of the border. You might be interested in learning that there are many citizens' groups in both countries that are trying to wage peace, including some in the diasporic communities (I belong to one). Thanks for all the thought-provoking stories! Best, Vandana
Vandana Singh The Minotaur, by Bill Kte'pi, was well worded as if he (himself) was a crazed murderer, I enjoyed every sentence (i was on the edge of my seat, trying to guess what would happen next!!!! Very Good!! -Make a movie out of it- :)
Sieara <Siearra_cece@yahoo.com> SH is like PBS only you don't hold the regular programs hostage while fundraising -- wonderful!
Andy Miller Howdy! Do you have a bio for William Mordore? I'd like to read more about him and Wendy Rathbone both. Provocative read. I was only recently introduced to her talent...
Enidan <cryofmankind@yahoo.com> I would like to have information on the "Modern Techniques of Steganography"
Yo <yorj1981@yahoo.com> Just wanted to say thanks to R.porter for his/her shining review. If you liked the art for this story, take a look at my online portfolio. You can also email me and tell me what you think. Thanks
Rob Beam <Rbeamo@aol.com> Rob Beam's artwork is cool, like hamburger pudding. I want seconds, minutes, hours, please. Hi-octane, Studebaker surround-sound, with colors like last year's rye bread. Wow!
r. porter Thanks, Sarah. And thank you, Gordon! I wish you wrote all my reviews!
Tim Pratt <timpratt@sff.net> "Living with the Harpy" by Tim Pratt was not only beautifully written, it was brilliant in concept. This story is a perfect jewel, an unflawed gem.
Gorden Russell <GordenCRussell@MSN.com> Nice nostalgic article, The Ultimate Halloween Prank: The War of the Worlds Radio Broadcast. Mr. Palmer reminds us of the power of words. As for gullibility, that is plainly visible with each new email hysteria created. If Welles were alive today, would he be mining the new landscape of the Internet?
Bob Haynes <haynesrg@yahoo.com> Wow, what a great run of stories and authors!--S. Evans, then David Moles, then Tim Pratt's "Living with the Harpy", which I thought was wonderful.
SarahP <sprineas@msnNOSPAM.com> I just read S. Evans's story, "Indra's Rice." As I would expect, she has once again crafted an excellently written story with subtle little items that keeps one reading and enjoying. I am not sure I agree with the thought of "drug the world", but hey, that is what Spec fic is all about. Giving us something to think about. Using science fiction and fantasy to create new ideas for us to consider. S. definitely does that and more. Good job!
John Borneman "Indra's Rice," by S. Evans, is a lovely story, but I found the premise rather disturbing. Far from being a blessing, a drug that can turn anyone into a pacifist, and can be gene-spliced into a food crop, might well turn out to be the most terrible weapon ever employed in the service of tyranny. All an aspiring conqueror would need to do is ensure that his own soldiers were not exposed to the drug -- not so difficult if it has to be ingested, as the story implied. Dinesh D'souza, in his recent book "What's So Great About America" (which gives a serious answer to that rhetorical question), pointed out the limitations of non-violence this way: "If Hitler had been ruling India, Ghandi would be a lampshade." Non-violent protest only works if your opponent has a conscience, and history has shown again and again that tyrants can always find plenty of conscienceless men to do their dirty work. The ideals of individual freedom, human rights, and yes, peace, can persist in the world only if their defenders remain capable of countering force with force.
Alex Harman <mantis@auros.org> Just wanted to thank Dan Percival for his comment on my essay, The Failure of Fahrenheit 451. (Thanks for pointing out the bad URL to the excellent SH editors -- I also noticed that quotation marks from that interview were dropped from Bradbury's words, making part of it look like paraphrase: "The influence of television...etc." is actually a direct quote.) In future essays on this topic, I hope to present a more rigorous definition of Cassandraism. I also want to add to the praise for Moles's Memory of Water, BTW. Good story.
Jeremy Smith <exformation1@yahoo.com> Regarding Matt Clark's I think the best that can be said of Wesley Gary was that he was mistaken in his assumptions. You can't get something from nothing - the universe just doesn't work that way. The best evidence that perpetual motion devices don't work is ... there aren't any on the market. You're implying a paranoid conspiracy spanning generations and thousands if not millions of people, one that is keeping 'the people' from free energy and what not. Get over yourself. brian dunbar
Brian Dunbar <brian.dunbar@plexus.com> Regarding "Tarot Cards and UFOs": I've been studying and writing poetry and oh how much I love this wonderful contrast between the conversational and strange. Lovely stuff.
Maureen McHugh <mcq@en.com> [Regarding "Who Killed Farscape?":] Friday night was my TV night not to be interfered with. The SCI-FI channel was the star. The programming has deteriorated to the point that I no longer watch SCI-FI on Friday night and not too often on other nights.
TED FAGAN <ktmogan2@aol.com> [Regarding "Perpetual Nonsense":] How, then, do you explain the very simple magnetic motor invented in the late 1800's by Wesley Gary? It took advantage of the 'neutral line' of permanent magnets, was examined by many scientists and was produced commercially. Could this be one of the type of devices that mainstream science likes to "forget about" because it doesn't fit the established norm?
Matt Clark <grim@seidata.com> "God's Gift to Women." Ms Wachsler has committed such beautiful blasphemy. Shame on you and congratulations. Good thing Jesus has a sense of humor.
Gorden Russell <GordenCRussell@MSN.com> "Memory of Water" by David Moles has very powerful and poetic prose. The best kind. I expect to see your name again. I will remember it.
Gorden Russell <GordenCRussell@MSN.com> Jeremy Smith's "The Failure of Farenheit 451" has me scanning my bookshelves, asking myself how each title relates to Cassandraism. Thank you (SH & Smith) for giving time to an alternative to the dystopia/utopia dichotomy and for the nicely coined term. One small correction: the URL for the 1998 interview with Ray Bradbury should be "http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.10/bradbury.html" (note the lowercase B in bradbury).
Dan Percival <dan underscore percival at yahoo> Thanks! I’m glad it rang true with someone who has considerably more direct links with Germany. :) You can find a list of my other publications (including one at Strange Horizons) on my web site, at http://www.chrononaut.org/~dm/pubs/.
David Moles <dm@chrononaut.org> David Moles, WELL DONE! Not only did The Memory of Water hold my attention, it stirred my own memories and remembrances of stories by others. There must have been a lot of research or first hand experience in the chronicling of the war but, being first generation from Germany, I found myself listening to the dialogue in the same manner in which I listened to the grown-ups, when I was a child. If this is not your first work, please let me know where else your work can be found. Absolutely delightful!
genebko <geneboecker@hotmail.com> woo-hoo! I don't know what he's talking about, but he's a cool professor!! Way-ta-go, Dr. Clair!! ^__^ v
Ming Fang <zvesty@hotmail.com> The Science Fiction Poetry Association recently announced the 2003 Rhysling Award winners. Frequent Strange Horizons contributor Mike Allen took first place in the long poem category (in a collaboration with Charles Saplak) and second place in the short poem category. The first place winners in the both the short and long poem categories will see their poems published in the Nebula Awards Anthology. Congratulations, Mike! Short poem category: First Place: "Potherb Gardening" by Ruth Berman Second Place: "A Ghost Story" by Mike Allen Third Place: "meteor shower" by David C. Kopaska-Merkel Long poem category: First Place: (tie) "Epochs in Exile: A Fantasy Trilogy" by Charles Saplak and Mike Allen "Matlacihuatl's Gift" by Sonya Taaffe Second Place: "Medusa's Tale" by David C. Kopaska-Merkel Third Place: "Not One of Us" by Tyree Campbell
Harold and Mardel <poetry@strangehorizons.com> Indeed, to each their own. Shopping at the End of the World did nothing short of blow me away, and The Birdcatcher made me grin like an idiot. Erika, Doug: kudos on taking some possibly predictable starting points in new and incredible directions. I am very much wowed. :)
Leah Bobet <cristalia_is@yahoo.com> To Mike Allen: No offense friend, but I wasn't really impressed with your poems. They seem a bit outlandish (Jesus 7.0!?) and obscure, or ineffective if that is the effect you are trying to pull. But hey, poetry is as poetry does, so keep on writing!
Joe Bob To each his own, I suppose, A. I enjoyed Doug Lain's story. The symbolic blood leaving the Nike building alone was pretty kickass.
MRM Got bored with the Douglas Lain story halfway thru and just skipped to the end.
A. Nonymous Mary Anne, Best wishes for your new projects as they are sure to multiply, and great to read that you are not going to REALLY leave! All of you have kept Strange Horizons a consistently excellent magazine, but as important as the read itself is the professionalism and generosity of spirit in all involved. Susan, you'll be a superb EiC. Anna
Anna Tambour <anna_tambour@yahoo.com> Mary Anne, you've done a wonderful job with the magazine and will be greatly missed. Susan, best wishes for success as editor-in-chief. I'm sure SH will continue to amaze and entertain.
Nancy Proctor <nproctor@mindspring.com> genebko -- Thanks for the comments. I'm glad you enjoyed the story. Jay
Jay Lake <jlake@jlake.com> Mary Anne, Best wishes for the future. As something of a newbie to Strange Horizons (only been following along for the past year) I've enjoyed the content greatly. I hope that who fills your shoes can walk your walk.
genebko Jay, friend, ol' buddy, ol' pal, the cliche is a tired one but the concept is fresh. The religeous rigidity in a technological society is simply not plausable. The hidden plot, though, was enough to keep me reading. Not the best story I've seen unfortunately.
genebko We love you, Mary Anne.
Jay Lake <jlake@jlake.com> toooooooooooooooooooooo long
google <e@mail.com> RE: This week's editorial. Thanks, Mary Anne--and all the staff members of SH--for the hard work you do, the consistently high level of professionalism, the bicoastal workshops, and the tea parties. You've done a lot of good things for SF and writers during the past three years. I hope you know how much it's appreciated. And good luck, Mary Anne, with whatever comes next!
SarahP <sprineasatmsndotcom> I'm very glad to see this very cool Doug Lain story up. The fact that I live in Portland too in no way detracts from my experience of the -- what was that? My house! My house! Good work, guys.
Jay Lake <jlake@jlake.com> "See Jack Run" was so funny I pissed my space suit. As fun as that was, it should be noted that it is NOT a children's story! After reading it to my four year old, he has been raving to his fellow preschoolers about the virtues of Biante the androgynous whore. As educating as that may be, I'm not exactly the most popular parent in the parking lot. Writers like Wade A. White, while making us laugh, are lubricating the slippery slope to the moral decay of the universe. Grease me up!
Jim Sears <jimsears@graffiti.net> Children, can you say "laughed my ass off"? Wade Albert White's story just rocked. Loved it. Like Lisa, I would have snorted coffee out my nose, except I wasn't drinking coffee at the time.
SarahP <sprineasatmsndotcom> Er... series. Not serious. Noooo, nothing serious about that story.
Lisa Mantchev "See Jack Run" made me snort my morning java up my nose. In case you're unclear, that's a good thing. Great stuff. Would love to read the second volume in the serious featuring Jane the two-headed alien...
Lisa Mantchev <dallandra_@hotmail.com> You might all be amused to see the following quiz, based on the Other Cities series: http://www.benjaminrosenbaum.com/city_quiz/quiz.html cheers Ben
Benjamin Rosenbaum Please keep publishing stories by M. Thomas. Her "Sock Heroes" has just been supplanted as my favorite by her latest, "Beguiling Mona". I also very much enjoyed Jon Hansen's "The Laundromat Advances the Plot", and I'm usually not much of a poetry fan. Maybe it was because of the washed socks...
SarahP <sprineasatmsndotcom> Thanks for publishing Ellen Klages' Travel Agency. Sweet without being cloying, with a melancholy undertone. If it were a wine it would be a late harvest riesling.
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